“Oh Fuckpoliteness, WHY are feminists ruining our fun?”
November 9, 2009
“I mean really!?? WHY must you consistently work at deluding yourself into a belief that women are not afforded equal respect in this society? Get with the times! Look at all those female school teachers (feminazis seizing control of the education system and raising stunted children bound and muzzled by the ludicrous restraints of political correctness)! You got the vote, you get to work (getting paid less than men for the same roles and having the social pressure to be the primary carer for kids and having your employees milk you for all the extra hours they can even when your kids are sick, and if you look half broken asking if it’s ‘that time of the month’…but you GET to work! Why it’s been a while now since universities controversially decided that humans with vaginas are still humans and could therefore possibly be allowed a university education! Sure the first chick at Sydney Uni faced so much fucking hostility she bailed and went to Scotland to finish her studies, but FARK…that’s all OVER! And sure, okay, there are those Islamic countries where women are disrespected, and okay, sometimes some uneducated redneck (or footballer) might beat or rape a woman, but REALLY – that hardly ever happens, and women are equal (and liars about rape) and viewed as equal so if you want to think otherwise you’re just playing the victim – why don’t you get empowered with a pole dancing class?”
Well dear (fabricated) arsehole reader: let’s discuss St Paul’s college at Sydney University shall we? These wonderfully educated, privleged and pampered little tossers wear formal wear to dinner every night, that’s JUST how much wankery goes into ‘Did you get the message? You are Very Important People’.
Their parents have already paid more than most of us will earn in a lifetime so they can brag about their kids fluency in Latin, or deftness with a ball made from pigskin. These fine upstanding pillars of our society are the boys/men we should allegedly look up to/hope for our kids to be like – they should be a decent barometer of where it’s ‘really’ at, or where it’s going, shouldn’t they? I mean no ’school of hard knocks, grew up on the farm, had me ears clipped if I slept in, harden-the-fuck-up’ upbringing to blame for outbursts of uncouth aggression. These aren’t those ’scarifying Muslims’ from out West preying on our girls! These are the landed gentry, the diligent and respectable future of our country, the professionals-cum-politicians, the leaders in waiting. So what, pray tell do these wealthy respectable erudite leaders-in-waiting have to say on gender equity, the role of women in society and the way forward for society?
‘They can’t say no with a c–k in their mouth” read the hand-drawn graffiti in the Salisbury Bar, part of St Paul’s residential college on the University of Sydney campus.
Just for anyone confused, that would be COCK, not cookie, chicken or cook.
Here’s hoping that anyone these little fuckers (and their oh-so-precious cocks) come into contact with have razor sharp incisors and jaws like a bear trap. But happy-daydream-scenarios of a couple of torn off cocks stapled to the wall in the same spot as the graffiti with a handwritten message of “I think they can” aside – we know this is not the reality of how this will play out.
These students are men – they are eighteen, entitled to vote, drive a car and drink (I’d say hopefully not at the same time, but why the hell not, Daddy knows someone who could smooth it all over if they did). They have the best education considerable piles of money can buy, from the ‘finest’ institutions. They *allegedly* have the finest moral upbringing one could ask for, what with their shelter from the ‘uncouth’ ways of the poor and rough and their religious schools instilling their lessons in strict morality and proper conduct. They have every chance in life and no ‘excuses’. And they *know full well* that not only can they hold these attitudes towards women but they can fucking flaunt them, scream them from the roof tops, rub women’s noses in them. They didn’t just ‘not know’ it was ‘wrong’ to talk about/treat women this way, they *learned* the lesson that women are objects and they are the only real subjects, the only people who matter, they *learned* the ‘boys club’ lessons. They learned they’ll get away with it. And then they’ll settle down and marry and no one will be any the wiser.
The girls/women they rape will unfortunately NOT be physically able to bite their trouble making cocks off. They will be raped, presumably by someone laughing at their trauma. And they will be shamed. They will be blamed. Their sense of control over their bodies and what should happen to them will be torn from them by a bunch of entitled little misogynists. Their sense of safety can be destroyed in an instant because these boys have *learned* that it’s safe and acceptable to carry these attitudes towards women. And these guys are the guys with the very best chances of getting away with it permanently…with no blemish on their records. And to go on to positions of power safe and smug in the knowledge that they are invincible – they can do anything and get away with it.
So if you happen to be the next person to ask me why I’m a feminist…or to tell me that women ‘are so too’ equal? Just be forewarned that I’m likely to be slightly LOUD and unpleasant in my response okay?
[E.T.A Please go read Mary's much more thoughtful and insightful post on the matter @ Hoyden About Town
Also, I'd really love it if people could be clear that rape and condoning rape is the problem, not being drunk. While I understand that alcohol and violence have a complex and enmeshed relationship, it keeps appearing to me as though people are like 'Rape, yes, bad - oh to stop binge drinking'. I hope like HELL they mean the drinking of the men is the issue, and not that women were drunk, but even then...they did not rape because they were drunk, and they did not think rape was fucking HILARIOUS stuff to post about because they were drunk. RAPE is the issue. I'm all for alcohol being seen as dangerous, but let's not act as though it's a Jekyll/Hyde thing where but for that last malted beverage no one would have been raped.
And another thing - in the article discussing the college there's a quote re the St Paul's experience:
''All the facilities of the college are designed to ensure that men have the greatest possible amenity and can spend as little of their life as possible dwelling on mundane, domestic arrangements."
While I'm not suggesting that if they had to fold their own sheets they wouldn't rape, I'm a bit taken aback by that being seen as a social good/social service...ah more fully grown men thinking the house cleans itself, and that dinner will present itself as the Just Rewards for Manliness, and when they realise it doesn't they'll just get a wife - a 'nice' wife and look fondly back on the days where the Universe provided and they could rape whomever they wanted. I'm afraid I *do* think there's a link with handing all of the 'Fun Bits' of life to 'men' on a platter and making them believe that life is like that, that 'mundane domestic arrangements' just take care of themselves or that is what a woman or servant is for (or indeed that the domestic is mundane etc), and the sense of entitlement and superiority they carry in all areas to such devastating effect in this area]
[E.T.A more links rounded up at H.A.T here including links to Penguin Unearthed and News With Nipples posts which I've been meaning to add links to]
Indeed.
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Rachel B, Cinder Fool. Cinder Fool said: for those needing an outlet of expression re today's smh reports. @FPoliteness I am full of hate today: http://bit.ly/2GeaWI [...]
Indeed, encore.
Heh…thanks to both of you…but I just wish there was something I could do rather than just rant sarcastically you know? I wish this *wasn’t* the world, or at the very least that since it is that others would *see* that it is.
Damn…where was that post which was effectively ‘If a woman is drunk…don’t rape her, if a woman is alone at night…don’t rape her’. It’s a little long but I’d like to tattoo it to my forehead.
Thank you, FP. I read those articles in the SMH, and just about wept. What scares sh*t out of me is that we will be sending our children out into that sort of world. I would love to think that it might have changed by the time they arrive there… but in the meantime I am working so hard on girding my daughters with resources, as I’m sure you’re working with mini-FP, so they are not attacked and damaged by this horrible rape-culture.
Werd.
gtfo rape culture.
You’re linked in comments at HAT as you’ve probably seen. I find this post much more refreshingly angry.
Good one FP.
Thats why I lurk here.
You are probably aware of this:
http://www.brushtail.com.au/july_04_on/address_to_scotch.html
“Nothing good ever came out of Scotch College, until now…”
but it should add fuel to your fiery eloquence.
Well thanks Mary, I sometimes get a bit bummed, you know, all that anger, same old world. And yes, I guess stapling cocks to walls *does* have that touch of anger about it, doesn’t it? ;p
There’s an extensive comment from kayloulee over at Hoyden about Town that’s worth reading. She lives in the Women’s college.
Great post, FP. You’re so right about the intersection of the entitlement culture of the elite public schools, and the misogyny that goes with it.
Home now so I can leave a proper comment.
You are so right about the arrangements of the Colleges taking the domestic hassles out of the men’s lives just adds to the guys’ sense of entitlement. These privileged individuals think that they are god’s gift to the planet and that they are incapable of rape cos every woman wants them so therefore nothing that they do could possibly to be rape (similar the mentality sometimes displayed by superstar football players).
Anyhow, as usual I love your work. Don’t put yourself down, because I find reading your sarcastic rants very cathartic – don’t underestimate your power ; ) I can’t write like that so I am always glad when you do.
That’s a corker of a speech Hannah’s Dad!
I’d have loved to be sitting in on that! Just clarifying that you mean you’re a lurker here because you like my writing and not you lurk because you’re afraid you’ll end up with your bits stapled to the wall if you comment!
I promise, I’ve never stapled anything people related to a wall and never will.
But happy-daydream-scenarios of a couple of torn off cocks stapled to the wall in the same spot as the graffiti with a handwritten message of “I think they can” aside –
I *heart* you.
[...] denigration, and rape of women at Sydney University’s colleges [link]. FuckPoliteness has an excellent rant about it, Hoyden Mary analyses college rape culture based on her own experiences of living in a [...]
Your anger is somehow soothing to my hurting heart. Rage on, sister. Rage. The. Fuck. On.
FP, you have such a fabulous way with anger that I also find it soothes my heart. 15 years ago when I was at UNSW, I knew some guys from the colleges at USyd and it was exactly the same then. The only thing that’s changed in 15 years is that we have this ‘pretending to be a stripper is empowering’ nonsense, which no doubt fuels the sense of entitlement that certain males have. (Because let’s not pretend that all men are like this.) And I’ve had male housemates who have come from these colleges where everything is done for them and they are awful, awful to live with. Surely we’re at a point in time where colleges like this need to be overhauled? Even without the rape culture, it’s irresponsible to be turning out young men who aren’t equipped for modern life.
[...] out the fabulous rant by Fuck Politeness. It always amazes me how her anger and biting humour can make me feel [...]
You know, one of my biggest aims in life as a parent is to educate three boys so that they will find this all as abhorent as we do. If that happens, I think I will have succeeded, even if they end up penniless and unemployed.
Thanks for all the lovely ‘heart-ing’ and kind words. Yesm godardsletterboxes, mine too! He’s 12 and so far so good but you know, adolescence is around the corner…keeping everything crossed.
I wish I read this post earlier today!!
I’m an ex-college student and I’ve been so raging and so sad and so frustrated all day – this post has just … just … *sigh*
you’ve made my night.
Thanks!!
Of course, the question is… what can be done? I don’t know, and no-one else seems to have any better idea. (Oh, and last time I looked, the politically influential feminists Down Under were too busy working with the government to make life even more miserable for sex workers to take on this kind of issue. That pretty much figures – further oppressing already marginalized groups is so much easier than real fundamental change, so it always wins out. Nasty recurring pattern.)
“Damn…where was that post which was effectively ‘If a woman is drunk…don’t rape her, if a woman is alone at night…don’t rape her’. It’s a little long but I’d like to tattoo it to my forehead.”
I don’t know where the original is, but it’s reprinted here:
http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2006/10/only_rapists_ca
Makomk – if you’re not going to give me something of any actual attempt to communicate something other than disdain and arsiness, then go away.
If you are a sex worker or a sex worker activist and you genuinely feel that the Down Under Feminist Carnival posts have not been supportive enough of sex worker rights, or have ever published anti-sex-worker articles as part of the DUFC then please let me know – that’s something I would want to address.
However, the tone of your question (immediately going from rape to ‘BAD feminists’, nothing at all to say on the culture of entitled and aggressive misogyny, only ‘BAD women’) leads me to believe you’re possibly just another bored time wasting wanker. You know feminists have never said we’ve fixed the world – but if you read the DUFC I think you’ll find intersectional feminist writings on race, gender, disability, trans issues, sex worker rights, parenting, cinema and culture. And for each of those issues, some writers are directly affected, and there is a dialogue to ensure that those who are privileged in each area are called out if they are being oppressive or marginalising. If you have specific examples and suggestions for how to make it better (because it can always be improved) then by all means, contribute something more useful.
But if you’re just another random who thinks s/he knows ALL feminists without needing to read their work, who thinks s/he knows that ALL we do is blog (cos you know, discussing politics DOES nothing), who just stopped by to aim a fairly empty bit of snark for no reason…then piss off.
Put your money where your mouth is and contribute something of *actual* use by illustrating exactly where we need to put in more effort and in what ways rather than just making a sort of free form and disconnected shitty “observation” (in scare quotes cos I’m not even sure you bothered to observe before commenting).
Again, if you are a sex worker or a sex worker activist, I do want to hear if there’s something we’ve done to make things worse.
Thanks Lauredhel.
Bra-fucking-vo! Spot on, every word. Love it.
When I moved into a Melbourne Uni college at 18 I remember all the girls and boys being separated on Orientation Day to have a sexual harassment talk led by third-year students. I was later gleefully told by my male peers that the older boys had started their talk with, “No means Yes, and Yes means Anal! Hahaha!” followed by some half-hearted crap like, “Yeah but nah, seriously, respect the chicks, or sumfin.”
So, while I was fortunate not to be sexually victimised at college, I know it happened to others and I know it is condoned and reinforced by college culture. This University of Sydney news hits home pretty hard for me.
Fantastic post.
This makes me want to go through the bio’s of all our male politicians to find out which of them went to these colleges.
I think we need to know this before we vote or support a political party.
The thought of the lawyers, doctors, bureaucrats, CEO’s, and judges ffs, with this background is scary. We need to know which men lived in these halls of shame. If they stayed there, they’re guilty, because if they were decent blokes, when they encountered the culture they would have tried to change it and got kicked out for not being a team-player, or they would have left of their own accord in disgust. If they sat next to rapists and misogynists in formal gowns eating their silver service escargot entree, they are no better than those pond-scum.
Ugh. How is it that anyone can even joke about no meaning yes without feeling ill!? The number of things it screams about the way women are viewed is mind boggling.
Re: previous reply.
Apologies for any typos. I am so angry I just didn’t check.
It explains why the abortion is still illegal in Australia, Viagra is subsidised, childcare costs a fortune and there are hardly any women on the boards of major businesses. Oh, and women still earn less than men and do most of the bloody housework.
But it’s okay, girls, we all know feminists have gone too far.
FP It is unfortunate that I only found your site because of this abhorrent business, I’ve enjoyed reading your articles.
@Sandra
I am currently in my 3rd year at a Sydney Uni college, not St Pauls, and I am wondering which colleges you are calling the halls of shame? It seems to me that you are generalising and I find it incredibly insulting that you would label us all as one.
There are some bad things about my college, but many more good things. I stayed the duration of my degree because I wanted to change the culture for the better. I was not ostracized for doing so. However, these cultural things that I didn’t agree with do not compared to what is being reported in the media. Being a third year, I am part of the senior most group of students at the college, and we all know what goes on. The first time that I and my year group heard about the events being leveled at our college was in the paper. They are most definitely not a part of our college culture. I can not speak for Paul’s, as I only know a handful of them, but I do not take kindly to being accused of certain behaviour or holding a certain viewpoint as a result a minority.
In my own college, as in society, there are sexist individuals, as there are some racists, some bigots, and some of any other form of discrimination you care to name. They are a very small minority and are not bred by our college culture.
So, again, please do not label someone due to their small affiliation with a disgusting and immoral group.
Hi Ben…
Thanks for commenting. I’m glad you’ve enjoyed reading here, and you are correct – the business being discussed is abhorrent.
I guess it does probably feel as though you’re being lumped in all together, and I understand that that must be difficult and upsetting. I guess I would just say that when these sorts of stories come out, that women, feminists, who have spent a long time being told that their beliefs and commitments are illogical, irrational and unnecessary get quite upset as well. Rape is so common, and we spend a long time being derided for our anger over the fact that rape is ignored and effectively condoned by large chunks of society. It can be very difficult not to generalise – to the point where sometimes I find it difficult not to be personally angry with my male partner, or my male friends. I want to shout at them ‘What have YOU done to change this? How many times have YOU said ‘Dude, that’s not cool’? Where are YOUR blog posts, YOUR demonstrations, YOUR lobbying?’. I can’t help feeling that if men were being raped and talked about in these numbers and these ways that men would be more actively involved. And some men are. But most are not. Probably most don’t agree, but what are they doing to show that? To stand up to ALL men, to say ‘Rape jokes are not okay’/'Talking about women in that way is not okay’/'That joke is not fucking funny’.
I’m very very glad to hear that you are actively trying to alter a damaging culture. And I appreciate it. However if you follow some of the links in the blog you will see many stories from women who have lived at colleges who, even if they’ve not dealt with quite the same level of atrocity as that alleged against St Pauls, have still been subjected to variations on the ‘Yes means yes! No means yes!’ theme. Even where it is NOT so blatantly ‘Rape is fucking hilarious’ we’ve all been subjected to ‘Show us yer tits’/'Show us yer map of Tasmania’/'Ehhh…we want some pussy’ etc etc. It’s very difficult in the face of this rage and upset (for me as a woman when I hear stories of rape/rape jokes I immediately feel personally involved – they are ‘joking’ about me/my mother/my sister/my friends…women, all women. It happens to women because they are women – or rather because some men see women as less than human. And lots of men do not, but lots of *those* men do not stand up and fight. I’m sure many don’t know how they’d go about it, even if they want to.
I’m sure not everyone who went through St Pauls hated women. But when their *natural right* to enjoy the fullest of life without bothering with the ‘mundane’ aspects was being pampered…when they were being encouraged to bond as ‘men’ rather than as humans…when they have come from a long background of unquestioned and championed masculine privilege…when the jokes get made…when the graffiti went up…do we ‘only’ blame the ‘bad eggs’? I don’t know that anyone is trying to assert that each individual is a rapist/a rape sympathiser…but there is a systemic culture at work here…it needs to be questioned.
Perhaps in the midst of this news, this new spirit crushing story of profoundly appalling misogyny, perhaps we as women in our ‘Oh my god, this could have been me’, in our ‘Oh fuck, when will this end’, ‘Oh god, I’m SICK of hearing this, seeing this every damned day’, perhaps we do ungenerously generalise. I know it takes an active effort not to scream at male loved ones when they say they’re appalled but they’re not a part of an anti rape group, or don’t write about it, or don’t discuss it openly, or make a ‘harmless’ little prison-rape joke, or laugh along at the insinuation that a dressed up girl is a slut because it’s too hard to speak up or it wouldn’t make a difference…I get it, I do. Those male loved ones are loved for a reason. They’re good guys. But…well what exactly ARE they doing to address the prevalence of rape? WOMEN can’t stop it. (Yes, some women rape, some men are raped – predominantly by men, occassionally by women, women are not supernaturally Good). But men raping? Women can’t actually stop that. We know that. It hurts us. It makes us sad. It makes us angry. Occassionally it makes us generalise.
I’m very glad you want to change the culture, and glad you were not ostracised. I thank you and congratulate you on being active and I am pleased for you that it’s had no negative impacts on your social life. I ask you to continue, and I ask that when you see women in a forum like this generalise…that you take some time to consider why it might be…whether or not it is true it FEELS like the whole world doesn’t care, that the whole world turns a blind eye. You’ve obviously observed that there are problems within the college culture (I think the issues are *bred* much earlier than college, but I think college can be a space in which it proliferates/is sometimes hidden away). Others are making similar observations and if we sound angry, or if it seems like we think that no one cares…we probably are angry, we probably are at the point where we feel no one cares. If they did, how could it still happen (is how it feels)?
It’s fantastic that you are working to change the culture, but at this point what is still visible, still dominant, still powerful to us as women is the culture that needs changing, not the individuals willing to take risks within it. I guess I would just ask you to think through why women might feel angry/hurt/feel like the whole world is against them. We’ve had to deal with the ever present threat of rape for our entire lives. We’ve heard the calls about loved ones having been raped, seen the scars…no literally I was eight the first time a loved one was raped by a man – continuously for a long time. Eleven when my best friend was raped and stabbed. Thirteen when my parents tried to shield me from the call that an elderly relative was raped in her driveway. Seventeen when my aunt confessed her cousins used to rape her from the age of three…and on, and on, and on it goes. If we are perhaps lashing out and those who are fighting for change are getting hurt by that, I’d ask them to be understanding of the level of hurt and why the lashing out is occurring. I’d ask you to take any hurt or anger that causes you and to direct it back at rape culture, back at produced forms of masculinity that hurt everyone, to use it as energy to fight for change rather than to fight women who are already hurt and reeling.
I can understand, Ben, how frustrating and unfair it is for you to be lumped in with a group, to have behaviours and roles assigned to you by other according to their own values, and for labels to be slapped on you despite what you believe, think or how you act.
It is outrageous is it not?
I really, really know about this, Ben, because I am a woman.
Ok Ben, truce?
The reason I think that the community at large should be looking at these colleges and questioning the values they are imparting, is because the only thing I think will change them is a hit in the hip pocket. If parents start thinking that paying college fees results in a stain on the CV, then maybe they will start boycotting them. I believe only when the cash starts drying up will these places do more than “not invite them back next term” (oh, my blood is starting to boil again!).
Maybe too, you will contact your old college and see what they are doing to clean out the scum who tarnishing you by association.
I wish I had the opportunity to study as I what I wanted and with someone ensuring I had the “greatest possible amenity” and “can spend as little of their life as possible dwelling on mundane, domestic arrangements.”
But I had to leave school at 15, no choice because I was a girl and girls didn’t need to go to university (I was Dux of my class at the time.) I went to uni as a single mother of young children living in abject poverty after leaving a cretin like these “men”. (I still have the visible and invisible scars.) No-one saw to my “amenity” and sure as hell no-one else did the bloody housework. My whole life has been lived around “mundane, domestic arrangements.”
Fuck it, I think I will do my PhD in Womens’ Studies.
PS
Ben, I don’t hold it against you personally, and I am glad to hear you tried to change the culture, we do need more men like you out there. I don’t hate males, some of my best friends are male.
1) I think I’m at the same college as Ben. The Australian today published unattributed comments from a source at a residential hall saying that there is some kind of points system for “scoring” with girls at our college… which is the first any of us at that college had heard about such a system.
2) Both of my sisters, one of my female cousins and two former girlfriends have been residents at various colleges. I have never heard of an instance where a girl has been forced into sexual activity without consent. Not once. I actually suspect actual sexual violence against women is underrepresented at colleges as compared to a cross section of other people of a similar age.
However, the issue is clouded by a deeply ingrained mysoginistic culture that has existed at university colleges. Our College (Johns btw in case you hadn’t worked it out) went co-res in 2001. The first few years must have been hell for the women, but things have improved out of sight since then.
I don’t expect you to approve of any of the following scenarios (as well you shouldn’t) but I do ask you to consider that a difference does exist between schoolboy sexist bravado and predatory sexual behaviour. Most of my male cohort were actually virgins when they reached university and despite their tough talk probably didn’t have the first idea about what to do in a bedroom.
I agree that misogyny in any form is not on, and that there is a creeping scale from immature boyish bluster to the nrl player raping a minor to the sexual predator. I would just caution that the first should not be subjected to the same treatment as the last.
The SMH and Oz in my view have defamed the colleges over the past week, and sadly they have actually missed the point.
Whilst one girl (or guy) being raped is one too many, the bloody papers have only paid passing notice to the drinking problem at colleges – a problem that is statistically much more likely to destroy the life of a college student – man or woman – than sexual violence.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts
fuckpoliteness: oh, there’s lots of wonderful writing, it’s just not this type of feminism that actually becomes politically influential within governments. Probably because…
Sandra: I dread to think how many politicians went to these kinds of colleges. At a guess, quite a lot of them. After all, they’re fundamentally an expression of class-based male privilege, and if that isn’t a ticket to power then the world’s a lot better place than it used to be.
(Wonder if there’s any UK equivalent, actually. There’s the Bullingdon Club, which is also an expression of classist male privilege and which our current future leaders were members of, but it doesn’t have the same anti-women and pro-rape aspects AFAIK.)
(and liars about rape)
you sound so stupid right now, stop talking about stuff you don’t know anything about.
this article is trash as far as i am concerned and i am not feminist, far from it. will not even fight you. just know that you are so so stupid and try to get your facts right before you go about blabbing!
Anyone wanna take Neils ‘creeping scale’ stuff on? For now all I’ll say is I don’t think that anyone is saying that a guy making a rape joke ’should be subjected to the same treatment’ as a rapist (ie/ jail). I don’t know that anyone here has advocated that.
However, (I’m rushing to work, if someone has time could they please dump say the Schroedinger’s Rapist link or the Kate Harding (?) post I think on being a blogger and using her own name where she’s saying if you’ve ever laughed at a rape joke you’re part of the problem.
But Neil, no one’s saying that the treatment meted out ought to be the same, they’re saying that rape happens by far and away predominantly with male rapists – it’s a large problem within masculinity that some men/boys (so many men/boys really – think about the news stories over the last few weeks) will rape women – because it’s ‘fun’ or ‘funny’ or ‘bitch deserved it’ or ‘look what she was wearing’ or ’she cracked onto me’…rape happens because rapists rape. Women try to change rape culture, but men are the ones with the social power to change it by challenging men whenever they hear it. Immaturity and ‘virgin status’ sure, men boys want to ‘prove their cool’ and show some ’street cred’. At the expense of women though? When they make ‘jokes’ like that, there will be someone in the vicinity who has been raped or knows someone who’s been raped. When they make rape ‘jokes’ there will be someone in the vicinity with the propensity to rape, who takes those sort of jokes as condoning violence against women. No one’s suggesting the treatment should be the same, but they’re pointing out that the culture is toxic and needs to be changed, and if a couple of dozen anxious virgins have to deal with their virginity and anxiety like everyone else and NOT be macho dickswingers about it? That’s a price I’m happy to pay.
As far as binge drinking goes, have we not been hearing about it for years? The alcopop tax? Every article about rape making it sound as though binge drinking is the ‘root’ of the problem (it’s a massive problem, however it doesn’t *cause* rape, and rape gets *excused* by intoxication a la the comments in the Leigh Leigh case way back when)? I’m actually going to say that I resent the ever loving fuck out of it when, in a situation in which FOR ONCE misogyny is being discussed openly without a scape goat of ‘Muslim Others’ or ‘Rednecks’ or ‘Football culture’ we veer so quickly away, to ‘one bad seed’ arguments, to ‘I’ve never seen it’ to ‘What about alcohol damage’ etc.
Anyway, I need to start my day.
All fair points, but to pillorise an entire section of society as supporting these kinds of views because of the immature antics of a few, and for the papers to claim that the colleges are not a safe place for women is an incredible insult to not the 900 odd students there now but also the countless thousands of alumni. To read the press this week you’d think that any female college student lives in imminent danger of sexual assault.
I look back at the women who were in my circle of friends at the time, all of whom were and are very close to my heart, and i am deeply offended by the insinuation that I did not do evrything in my power to keep them safe. I did – we all did, and the reason we didn’t make a song and dance about sexual violence is that it was not a problem at our college.
Alcohol and silly sexist songs were a problem and we made steps to change that. The alcohol thing remains an issue.
I take on board 100% everything that has been said, but stand by my statement that from my experience these things happen LESS frequently in college than in the outside world.
Tisha, I can’t quite tell where you are coming from. Given you’ve pulled ‘and liars about rape’ I can’t tell if you’re angry with me for being a feminist and being anti-rape, or if you think that *I* was suggesting women are liars about rape. Because I’ve set up a sarcastic pretend ‘question’ to which I then respond. And I’m mocking the fact that while people want to tell me that women are ‘equal’ they still talk about how you can’t really tell since women are liars about rape.
If you have thought that that is what *I* am saying, then I apologise – you would be well within rights to tell me I’m stupid, to be furious, to think the article’s trash and I don’t know what I’m talking about.
If on the other hand what you are angry about is the entire post, me being anti-rape, me suggesting that men who shove a cock in a girl’s mouth to stop her saying no deserve that cock to be bitten off and stapled to the wall…well then peace be with you but get lost.
If it’s the first, a misreading and horror at a woman suggesting women are liars about rape, we’re cool here: I would never suggest that, and my whole stance is the opposite, I can see how someone would stop reading there if they thought that I meant that and perhaps I need to put up a sarcasm alert.
If it’s the latter, well, you know, I read a little of your site. You say Jesus is your buddy, and God is your man…so…why the heck would you expend so much energy hating someone for suggesting that rape is a problem. And if it really *is* the latter, I think you really need to ask yourself what WOULD Jesus do? I don’t imagine he’d spit chips at someone for being anti rape. I don’t imagine he’d stop for a little drive-by-flaming at the terrifying feminists who want rape to be stopped.
Neil – all you’ve really proved is the reality of the situation: that men at college are both complicit and blind to rape culture at Sydney colleges.
In fact, if you’re who I think you are, one of your friends was raped and you don’t even know about it – why? Because women won’t talk about these things. She never reported it. Had to be dragged to the university health service for at least a checkup afterwards. She wouldn’t because talking about it would have only made her into a pariah, and she had a career to consider where she’d probably have to work with these people.
You were friends with men who harassed women, including my girlfriend at the time, near-constantly. I know because I saw it, because I was told about it, but -
All you see is ‘jokes’, ‘liars’, ‘irresponsible drunk women who get what’s coming to them’, because that’s how rape culture works. I’m sorry Neil, again, if you’re who I think you are you were never the worst, but you’re still so hip-deep in it you couldn’t see what was right in front of you. College culture seemed to do this to every nice kid who went in.
Matt, Thank you.
Tisha, you say you are far from being a feminist. I am going to make an assumption here, which could be wrong but I have a gut feeling you are coming from a religious background, possibly conservative Christianity. I can’t say why, maybe it is just the tone of your post. If I am wrong I do apologise, but if this does not apply to you, it does apply to those colleges founded from a Christian background.
Jesus was a feminist. His ministry relied heavily on the support of women. Women of means provided financial support, safe-houses and belief in his message. Women are pivotal in the story of Jesus, who affirmed their right to safety no matter their social standing, and the expectation that all people were equally entitled to respect, safety and freedom from judgmental attitudes. The Gospels speak of the men, the 12 disciples, with only fleeting reference to the woman who were also his disciples and went on to preach his messages. But the Bible was written by men.
Women’s experience in the life and times of Jesus is a very interesting study, especially when you realise that conservative Christians use the passages of the Old Testament and parts of the NT such as the writings of Paul, a flagrant misogynist, to justify using Christianity to oppress women. (I bet Jesus gave Paul a good kick up the arse when he checked in to the Hereafter. “You have undone most of what I tried to do you great fuckwit. This will take a couple of millenia to unravel.”)
If you are not a feminist how can you say you are a Christian? How can you say you are trying to walk in Christ’s footsteps?
FP, your angry rants do this angry soul much good. The calm intellectual approach is wonderful and all but sometimes we also need to scream and yell and shout at the vileness of it all. And if ever there was one of those times, this is it.
To think that we all walk around with these pieces of dog-snot all day (not just on campus but in offices, on the street, in train stations, around shops, on TV, on radio, creating our billboards, creating our curriculum, running the fucking country), not knowing which ones would casually attack us, our friends, our sisters, our mothers. To think we walk around with those that might not themselves do it but would turn a blind eye, would joke about it, would find such graffiti terribly witty and hilarious. To think we can’t even trust our fellow women to believe us when (I won’t reduce that by suggesting an “if” – likelihood is that in this society, in this culture, a woman will be abused in her lifetime. It’s just a matter of time) it happens. To think that crying out for women to be treated as human beings is something that other women will recoil from in horror …
How can we be anything but angry? Why isn’t everyone angry?
Thanks, Matt (as much as it makes me wince and sorrow at the world that it takes another man to make a man listen). Neil, trust me on this, as an ex-college student who attended a *dry* college, and saw misogyny enacted as a matter-of-course, and seriously would not be surprised if there was rape on campus, you are just the goldfish who can’t see the water he breathes. Trust me: the fact that you can’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen; it just means you don’t experience it. Don’t presume to tell women that they’re wrong simply because their experience deviates from yours. Deal with the fact that your perspective might preclude the perspectives of others. Try this 101 on for size: http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2009/10/rape-culture-101.html And the recommended reading from FP: http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/
I re-read Tisha’s post. I think my reply was a bit wide of the mark with some tenuous assumptions. Please consider it instead as a general comment for people who think being religious means you can get away with oppressing women and for the colleges founded by religious organisations. They are being bloody hypocrites.
Beany, I once made the point on a call to a talk-back radio program that every aboriginal female had been raped (presumably by non-aboriginal males) as this was a statement I had read somewhere when I was in university. I didn’t get very far with my call.
Maybe the attitudes fostered in these colleges explains why the new Parliament House, when built in Canberra in 1988 for a cost of $1.1 BILLION, had 4,700 rooms with numerous private courtyards, dining rooms, bars, and gyms BUT NO FUCKING CHILDCARE CENTRE.
Ah…Makomk I think I misread the tone of what you were saying. I thought you were digging at feminists and suggesting that we all work to oppress sex worker rights when it seems you were saying that the ‘feminists’ with the power, I dunno, Bettina Arndts/Pru Gowards etc are not interested in the sort of change that needs to happen (?). Anyway, apologies if I really got the wrong end of the stick there – it really did read like you’d just come on to get up everyone for not being in Government and making changes.
So if, as it seems, I got the wrong end of the stick, many apologies for having a shit attack!
Nah.
I’ve thought long and hard about this, about what I’ve seen and what I’ve heard over the years…
I’m calling shenanigans.
On behalf of the collegians (never mind the men) – the strong women who I knew who would not have hesitated to raise hell if they knew something like this had happened to one of their friends I’m calling shenanigans.
“not knowing which ones would casually attack us, our friends, our sisters, our mothers. To think we walk around with those that might not themselves do it but would turn a blind eye, would joke about it, would find such graffiti terribly witty and hilarious”
Massive overreaction to the entire situation, but unfortunately typical of the tripe that has flown around in the last few days. I cannot think of one of my year at college who I would even imagine casually attacking a woman. I seriously doubt any of us would have turned a blind eye to such an attack, I heard precious few jokes about the subject that were not turned away with disgust and I never saw graffiti that referred to the issue.
In fact, the only violence that I ever heard of that sounded a bit out of line was a Pauline who bashed a wesley guy for mistreating his sister. M\On this note, I might add that most college girls I knew had links with guys at every college – at the slightest mention of this sort of rubbish they would have sparked holy war between the male colleges.
I still bear grudges against Paulines who cheated on friends of mine at Womens. Imagine if it had been worse…
I’m not saying that rape has never happened at a Sydney Uni college, just that it is not by any stretch of the imagination prevalent at anywhere near the extent to which it exists in broader society.
Over the past few days I have spoken to ex students of Pauls, Drews, Womens and Johns. All of them maintain that whtever problems the colleges as institutions might have, rape is not one of them.
Some of these people have or have had children at the same colleges.
(Unfortunately I can’t speak for Wesley and I would bet my bottom dollar that Wesley is responsible for the majority of disaffected women coming out of the college system.)
I may be dumb but I’m not blind.
Shenanigans
Oh and Matt, if you think you know who I am, come and talk to me about this… cause you’ll be the very first person I know who has ever mentioned it outside of the pages of the newspaper or on a blog.
Neil? Bullshit. I’m so sorry to disappoint you but unless you’ve got something more substantial than ‘Me and mine ain’t seen nuffin’ then I’m in no way prepared to accept that the stats for rape and assault on college are in any way less than what they are in regular society.
I’m so very glad you’ve spent hours navel gazing, but if you can read the links provided by Wildly Parenthetical and then just say ‘Nah’ based on your ‘observations’ (you know, crime stats thank fuck aren’t based on What Neil Knows About) then just go away. I’m uninterested in ‘I didn’t see anything, I didn’t hear anything, it doesn’t exist’.
The fact is that in society itself women walk around with that uncertainty that you call a ‘massive overreaction to the situation’- whether or not it happens *more* at College is debatable (and not on ‘What I Have Seen’ grounds), but the point is College is sold as a place of family and safety and yet the needs of some are looked after more adequately than the needs of others. For too long the ‘harmless’, ‘boys will be boys’ stuff has applied.
So, if you’ve got nothing substantial to say…
You know I’d just like to make an ‘observation’. Where I live is a very privileged place right? I NEVER EVER hear any sounds or indications of domestic violence. Mustn’t happen then right? Those women have privilege – they’re *strong* women (what like those who keep quiet are weak??) – they’d speak out! I’d KNOW something like that was happening in my area.
Do you see how mother fucking stupid that sounds? Go away.
In case you’re wondering, ‘Nah’ and ‘Massive overreaction’, and ‘tripe’ were the tipping points at which your self important wankery became no longer welcome
Gee FP, if NEIL says rape culture is not a problem at colleges, I guess we can all go home! Some ex students of Pauls, Drews, Womens and Johns is an unquestionably reliable source and a huge-ass sample size! Why, if rape happened within colleges, EVERYONE would know about it because victims of sexual assault habitually make their traumatic experiences public, especially when the rapist happens to be a friend/acquaintance/older student/somebody they are forced to live with! SHENANIGANS INDEED, FP!
Plus, Neil says he thought HARD, yo! Time to pack it up!
[That was sarcasm by the way, in case some people don't appreciate my blabbing. TISHA.]
“Massive overreaction to the entire situation, but unfortunately typical of the tripe that has flown around in the last few days. I cannot think of one of my year at college who I would even imagine casually attacking a woman.”
Have you seen sexual assault and rape stats? The overbearingly awful fact is that there are multiple young men of your acquaintance that either have or will at some point attack a woman. Simple mathematics.
“I seriously doubt any of us would have turned a blind eye to such an attack”
Perhaps if a woman was actually being raped in your view a la “The Accused” you might possibly not turn a blind eye. Yes, possibly. I have a dim view of humanity in the face of cases such as http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/27/california.gang.rape.investigation/index.html and http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641307690 .
I hope you would be different and you would prevent a rape, though. But would you be even mildly incensed if a woman were being goaded, cajoled, bullied into acts she didn’t want to perform? Would you even notice a woman being groped against her will? Or being harassed when she has made it clear that she doesn’t want to engage in any interactions with a particular person?
Would you be happy to participate in the “tight and white” nights where women are turned into sexual objects (not sexual beings but objects)?
Would you sit back and listen to a man say “what a fucking bitch!” or “frigid cow!” because she didn’t want to dance with him?
Not all assaults on a woman leave physical marks and misogyny is far more subtle than actually beating and raping a woman.
“I heard precious few jokes about the subject that were not turned away with disgust and I never saw graffiti that referred to the issue.”
What was that word you used again? Oh yes, “shenanigans”. Nah. I’ll call that what it is: bollocks. I hear the jokes and I hear the laughter. I have seen people defending their joking on the matter with “Joking about something in the abstract seems fine.”
And you didn’t see the graffiti because the college staff actually have some sense and paint over it pretty quickly. Wouldn’t want the press to get a hold of it, after all.
Oh and regarding the subject being met with disgust … you do remember how all this started, right? A facebook group entitled “anti-consent”, with rape being used as a metaphor for the actions to be performed in an upcoming football game?
Where was the disgust, Neil? Why were so many of the college boys members and not protesting at the vileness of such a metaphor? Why were they joining in with the joke, saying they were “pro-rape” amongst other things?
Shenani-bollocks.
Want to know something guys? That graffiti – you can’t say no with a cock in your mouth – had a student’s name underneath it, like it was a really funny thing he’s said and he should get the credit for it. I know because I saw it and I was so fucking angry I went and got my camera and took a picture of it and then I sent the photo to the Sydney Morning Herald. Apparently NSW defamation laws are shit and they couldn’t publish the photo because it had a person in it (THE DUTY MANAGER!!) and it would impute that the person was of bad character. Well guess the hell what? Any guy that can stand in front of that graffiti looking goofy with a bottle of tomato sauce in his hand and not worrying about what’s written on the wall behind him probably is of bad character. And Neil, don’t tell me rape doesn’t happen at college. In my two years at Women’s I know of four girls who were raped, three of whom while passed out from alcohol.
Sorry to be late weighing in on this – my friend only sent me this link tonight.